I am also very supportive of women’s rights but lying is not helpful.
Honestly the point that it tries to make is not the point that it makes either. It could be understood as “let’s ban abortion everywhere”, and I don’t think that is the point that it tries to make.
I am in favor of bodily autonomy and I don’t care what the law currently is anywhere, it should be a given.
The irony is that the issue they’re talking about involves women losing, in some states, rights that men have never had in any state; men have zero legal means of opting out of parenthood, full stop.
If this was about women losing something that men aren’t already without, they might have the foundation of a point. But it’s still a fact that women haven’t really given a shit about advocating for giving men the equivalent rights, throughout the decades that they had them nationwide.
There is quite a big difference between parenthood + possible life threatening situation + all the “normal” changes that are part of pregnancy; and parenthood.
If it would be purely about parenthood, you would have a point but it is not. And maybe a conversation about the ability to opt-out of parenthood should be had but the conversation about abortion rights is not about parenthood.
I strongly encourage you to inform yourself about the consequence of the recent changes of abortion rights in America. It is not about parenthood, but health care.
I’m fully aware of the healthcare aspect when it comes to abortion, because of what pregnancy entails, but it shouldn’t be ignored that in the vast majority of cases, abortion is elective, sought because the would-be mother simply does not want the child to be born—in other words, she wants to opt out of parenthood.
If the law across the board in the US was that abortion was always allowed in cases where the pregnant woman’s life was in danger, but never otherwise, women wouldn’t be any less outraged than they are presently, even though that would put them on pretty much on an even keel with where men are, re reproductive rights.
The normal changes that happen in pregnancy are not to ignore. And what about pregnancy through e.g. rape? Do we dismiss the mental harm it would cause to have a daily reminder that someone did that to you?
Stop comparing.
Just say, “i think there should be an opt-out option for men” and move on. You can’t compare pregnancy and it’s implications with simply parenthood, but you don’t need to. Just argue for what you want without punch down. Women are not your enemy. You can have more rights and they can have more rights.
Do we dismiss the mental harm it would cause to have a daily reminder that someone [raped] you?
Of course I don’t dismiss that. But you say this as if aborting such a pregnancy would actually do anything to meaningfully reduce that trauma. You need counseling/therapy regardless.
Stop comparing.
Generally speaking, this is not a productive thing to say to someone who has fewer rights than you do.
Make no mistake, I want everyone to have full rights here—and in cases where it’s literally impossible for one of the sexes to have right X because of the biological realities and/or recognized bodily sovereignty (e.g. males would obviously make no use of a right to terminate their own pregnancy, nor should they be able to dictate whether any pregnant person terminate or not terminate the pregnancy), they should be legally afforded the closest equivalent possible.
Just argue for what you want without punch down. Women are not your enemy.
Your implication is frankly offensive. This is not, at all, a fair characterization of anything I’ve said here.
Your implications dismissed it. You talked about how most abortion being done by choice, because you wanted to make the point that a man should have a choice too, ignoring the fact that a cis man when raped, can’t and will not be impregnated and will not experience the trauma of such a pregnancy. There is an imbalance in the comparison. Of course, it doesn’t end with rape but also simply the consequences of being pregnant, e.g. possibly depression. By pointing at the choice and demanding the same ability to choose, you equate both. They are not the same and you dismiss all the differences.
I am very certain being pregnant by your rapist and having to carry the child to terms would be increasing the trauma of the rape and aborting the child would consequently reduce the trauma. I mean either way you would have trauma but I am fairly certain it is reducing.
I am telling you to stop comparing to vastly different situations. That your comparison is bad because of it.
“If this was about women losing something that men aren’t already without, they might have the foundation of a point. But it’s still a fact that women haven’t really given a shit about advocating for giving men the equivalent rights, throughout the decades that they had them nationwide.”… “women haven’t really given a shit about advocating for giving men the equivalent rights”… jup… the focus of women’s lack of “giving a shit” surely doesn’t frame women in any way negatively… yeah… get real.
I am also very supportive of women’s rights but lying is not helpful.
Worth knowing: although they attract a lot of anti-feminist losers, the “men’s rights” activists are absolutely correct that men do not universally have the same support programs or even legal presumptions that women do. These can vary widely from state to state and even from court to court.
It’s not nearly as big an issue as “they want her to die from a miscarriage”, but “they presume he’s the inferior parent” or “they presume he caused the violence even if he’s the one bleeding” are also sexist oppression.
(Comparisons to the anti-woke “all lives matter” bullshit are apt – men can and should recognize that relatively minor slights and injustices are not nearly as urgent as denying pregnant humans life-saving care!)
The simple fact is that the right to legally opt out of parenthood is something men have never had. Ironically, women losing some of those rights (there is still adoption and legal abandonment, the other 2 of the 'three A’s) in some places, brings them closer to where men are, re reproductive rights.
To be fair, the vast majority of these are societal standards and not rights, they are still absolutely important and we need to do more for equality both for women and for men, but strictly speaking they are not by definition rights.
But I am in agreement with you that I think a lot of why the younger generation are being pulled in the wrong direction is because men, of which I am one, have not done enough to create an environment that addresses issues that primarily affects men in a way that is not based on misogyny.
Don’t get me wrong, the alt-right have absolutely tried to exacerbate these issues (either knowingly or unknowingly) and use them for their own gains, but we as a society have also not prioritized emotionally healthy solutions and that has led us to where we are.
I think we have a right to be judged fairly and not because of our gender or sex. But that’s a semantic point and I don’t want to quibble.
I do want to push back on excusing from women their responsibility for the society we live in, however. (Or just underline an implied point we may both share.)
Nearly every man I know values the opinions of women at least as much as those of other men. When a boy sees his mom belittle his father for being insufficiently manly, he hears a lesson that sexism is bad. When a man tells a boy that the way to get a girlfriend is to be a sexist jerk the boy listens, not because he cares about the con artist, but because he’s desperate for a girl who cares about him.
Men have a lot of the big levers of power, and do bear a proportionate share of our own blame, but we shouldn’t excuse women who use the power they have in ways that make our society worse.
We’re all in this together, and all need to do what we can to make the world we pass to our children better than the one our parents passed on to us.
You are right but I think “ignoring” “men’s issues” harms the feministic cause and consequently the “dying of miscarriage” problem. As sad as it is PR is sometimes very important and e.g. the lie in the post doesn’t help the PR and a lot of young men don’t feel supported but attacked by the current framing of feminism.
I was careful not to use the word “ignore”, because the answer to anyone sharing how they were harmed by sexism should never be anything less than “that’s horrible and I hate that it happened to you.”
Sexist women who claim to be “feminist” and yet feel free to denigrate men or dismiss their perspective are terrible advocates for the cause.
(Not “their” cause, because sexism is an evil that harms everyone and everyone should be against it.)
(And sealions who claim to be “men’s rights activists” but just want to be sexist anti-feminist trolls are at least as bad.)
if they assume he’s the inferior parent, why do the men win custody almost every fucking time they try, whereas the woman involved gets the kid dumped on her, completely, with no child support orders unless she fights for them, anytime the guy doesn’t want anything to do with the kid he knocked her up with?
why do the men win custody almost every fucking time they try
I know where you’re getting this from. Just so you know, it comes from a deliberately misleading interpretation of “winning custody”, where if a man seeks any amount of custody, and is granted anything more than nothing at all, it’s ‘counted’ by those spreading this propaganda, a “win”. This is as opposed to what any reasonable person would call a “win”, which is when one gets at least as much custody as one seeks. That’s like calling me a “lottery winner” because I won $5 after spending $1000 on tickets, lol.
If the mother of my child is abusive and I try to get full custody, but the judge gives me every other week supervised visitation, that is obviously not a “win”, but it is, by the definition of the misandrists who propagated that particular piece of bullshit around.
Like i said, the issue varys wildly by state or court.
Although part of the reason why men who ask for custody get it more than 50% of the time is that very often they know (or believe) they don’t have a chance and so don’t fight.
I am also very supportive of women’s rights but lying is not helpful.
Honestly the point that it tries to make is not the point that it makes either. It could be understood as “let’s ban abortion everywhere”, and I don’t think that is the point that it tries to make.
I am in favor of bodily autonomy and I don’t care what the law currently is anywhere, it should be a given.
The irony is that the issue they’re talking about involves women losing, in some states, rights that men have never had in any state; men have zero legal means of opting out of parenthood, full stop.
If this was about women losing something that men aren’t already without, they might have the foundation of a point. But it’s still a fact that women haven’t really given a shit about advocating for giving men the equivalent rights, throughout the decades that they had them nationwide.
There is quite a big difference between parenthood + possible life threatening situation + all the “normal” changes that are part of pregnancy; and parenthood.
If it would be purely about parenthood, you would have a point but it is not. And maybe a conversation about the ability to opt-out of parenthood should be had but the conversation about abortion rights is not about parenthood.
I strongly encourage you to inform yourself about the consequence of the recent changes of abortion rights in America. It is not about parenthood, but health care.
Edit: https://www.propublica.org/article/georgia-abortion-ban-amber-thurman-death a little starting point
I’m fully aware of the healthcare aspect when it comes to abortion, because of what pregnancy entails, but it shouldn’t be ignored that in the vast majority of cases, abortion is elective, sought because the would-be mother simply does not want the child to be born—in other words, she wants to opt out of parenthood.
If the law across the board in the US was that abortion was always allowed in cases where the pregnant woman’s life was in danger, but never otherwise, women wouldn’t be any less outraged than they are presently, even though that would put them on pretty much on an even keel with where men are, re reproductive rights.
The normal changes that happen in pregnancy are not to ignore. And what about pregnancy through e.g. rape? Do we dismiss the mental harm it would cause to have a daily reminder that someone did that to you?
Stop comparing.
Just say, “i think there should be an opt-out option for men” and move on. You can’t compare pregnancy and it’s implications with simply parenthood, but you don’t need to. Just argue for what you want without punch down. Women are not your enemy. You can have more rights and they can have more rights.
Of course I don’t dismiss that. But you say this as if aborting such a pregnancy would actually do anything to meaningfully reduce that trauma. You need counseling/therapy regardless.
Generally speaking, this is not a productive thing to say to someone who has fewer rights than you do.
Make no mistake, I want everyone to have full rights here—and in cases where it’s literally impossible for one of the sexes to have right X because of the biological realities and/or recognized bodily sovereignty (e.g. males would obviously make no use of a right to terminate their own pregnancy, nor should they be able to dictate whether any pregnant person terminate or not terminate the pregnancy), they should be legally afforded the closest equivalent possible.
Your implication is frankly offensive. This is not, at all, a fair characterization of anything I’ve said here.
Your implications dismissed it. You talked about how most abortion being done by choice, because you wanted to make the point that a man should have a choice too, ignoring the fact that a cis man when raped, can’t and will not be impregnated and will not experience the trauma of such a pregnancy. There is an imbalance in the comparison. Of course, it doesn’t end with rape but also simply the consequences of being pregnant, e.g. possibly depression. By pointing at the choice and demanding the same ability to choose, you equate both. They are not the same and you dismiss all the differences.
I am very certain being pregnant by your rapist and having to carry the child to terms would be increasing the trauma of the rape and aborting the child would consequently reduce the trauma. I mean either way you would have trauma but I am fairly certain it is reducing.
I am telling you to stop comparing to vastly different situations. That your comparison is bad because of it.
“If this was about women losing something that men aren’t already without, they might have the foundation of a point. But it’s still a fact that women haven’t really given a shit about advocating for giving men the equivalent rights, throughout the decades that they had them nationwide.”… “women haven’t really given a shit about advocating for giving men the equivalent rights”… jup… the focus of women’s lack of “giving a shit” surely doesn’t frame women in any way negatively… yeah… get real.
Worth knowing: although they attract a lot of anti-feminist losers, the “men’s rights” activists are absolutely correct that men do not universally have the same support programs or even legal presumptions that women do. These can vary widely from state to state and even from court to court.
It’s not nearly as big an issue as “they want her to die from a miscarriage”, but “they presume he’s the inferior parent” or “they presume he caused the violence even if he’s the one bleeding” are also sexist oppression.
(Comparisons to the anti-woke “all lives matter” bullshit are apt – men can and should recognize that relatively minor slights and injustices are not nearly as urgent as denying pregnant humans life-saving care!)
The simple fact is that the right to legally opt out of parenthood is something men have never had. Ironically, women losing some of those rights (there is still adoption and legal abandonment, the other 2 of the 'three A’s) in some places, brings them closer to where men are, re reproductive rights.
To be fair, the vast majority of these are societal standards and not rights, they are still absolutely important and we need to do more for equality both for women and for men, but strictly speaking they are not by definition rights.
But I am in agreement with you that I think a lot of why the younger generation are being pulled in the wrong direction is because men, of which I am one, have not done enough to create an environment that addresses issues that primarily affects men in a way that is not based on misogyny.
Don’t get me wrong, the alt-right have absolutely tried to exacerbate these issues (either knowingly or unknowingly) and use them for their own gains, but we as a society have also not prioritized emotionally healthy solutions and that has led us to where we are.
I think we have a right to be judged fairly and not because of our gender or sex. But that’s a semantic point and I don’t want to quibble.
I do want to push back on excusing from women their responsibility for the society we live in, however. (Or just underline an implied point we may both share.)
Nearly every man I know values the opinions of women at least as much as those of other men. When a boy sees his mom belittle his father for being insufficiently manly, he hears a lesson that sexism is bad. When a man tells a boy that the way to get a girlfriend is to be a sexist jerk the boy listens, not because he cares about the con artist, but because he’s desperate for a girl who cares about him.
Men have a lot of the big levers of power, and do bear a proportionate share of our own blame, but we shouldn’t excuse women who use the power they have in ways that make our society worse.
We’re all in this together, and all need to do what we can to make the world we pass to our children better than the one our parents passed on to us.
I would agree and disagree.
You are right but I think “ignoring” “men’s issues” harms the feministic cause and consequently the “dying of miscarriage” problem. As sad as it is PR is sometimes very important and e.g. the lie in the post doesn’t help the PR and a lot of young men don’t feel supported but attacked by the current framing of feminism.
I think we agree and agree.
I was careful not to use the word “ignore”, because the answer to anyone sharing how they were harmed by sexism should never be anything less than “that’s horrible and I hate that it happened to you.”
Sexist women who claim to be “feminist” and yet feel free to denigrate men or dismiss their perspective are terrible advocates for the cause.
(Not “their” cause, because sexism is an evil that harms everyone and everyone should be against it.)
(And sealions who claim to be “men’s rights activists” but just want to be sexist anti-feminist trolls are at least as bad.)
Yup, we agree.
if they assume he’s the inferior parent, why do the men win custody almost every fucking time they try, whereas the woman involved gets the kid dumped on her, completely, with no child support orders unless she fights for them, anytime the guy doesn’t want anything to do with the kid he knocked her up with?
I know where you’re getting this from. Just so you know, it comes from a deliberately misleading interpretation of “winning custody”, where if a man seeks any amount of custody, and is granted anything more than nothing at all, it’s ‘counted’ by those spreading this propaganda, a “win”. This is as opposed to what any reasonable person would call a “win”, which is when one gets at least as much custody as one seeks. That’s like calling me a “lottery winner” because I won $5 after spending $1000 on tickets, lol.
If the mother of my child is abusive and I try to get full custody, but the judge gives me every other week supervised visitation, that is obviously not a “win”, but it is, by the definition of the misandrists who propagated that particular piece of bullshit around.
Like i said, the issue varys wildly by state or court.
Although part of the reason why men who ask for custody get it more than 50% of the time is that very often they know (or believe) they don’t have a chance and so don’t fight.
Men winning custody? Surely you jest