Here is a link to my other post where I expressed my thoughts much better, if you are interested you can take a look – https://lemmy.world/post/37101088
This was done to Wikileaks fifteen years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiLeaks#Financial_blockade
Yes, but it evolves!!!
If it is just ID but on the phone then it is a sensible idea with a couple of millions precautions to take care of. Case in point - Diia is fine if flawed realization of Digital ID and digital governance application. You just need to get through a dozen or so data leaks because we got our pentesting permanently outsourced to guys up east but aside from that - it is broadly fine.
But since we haven’t actually been told what it will entail in the UK, we don’t know.
Ideally it could be used in a privacy preserving manner, e.g. you can use it to prove you are 18 without revealing any other details.
It’s being sold to us under the guise of “stopping illegal immigrants from being able to work”, which I can tell you right now is not something any ID scheme will be good for because it’s nearly all unregistered cash-in-hand jobs.
lack of transparency kills everything. especially when the government already has hostile reputation towards its citizens. which is weird because it is way easier to get reelected when you actually do something that makes life of your people easier and more self-sustainable. but that’s probably a bit too much to ask.
…why don’t you all just revolt like the gen z protests?
Its not impossible
The NYPD is the world’s 27th most expensive military, barely behind Sweden and significantly ahead of Indonesia.
I find this kind of sentiment a bit funny, because we already have much worse
Credit scores are opaque ratings of people kept by private organisations used to refuse business to people effectively based on their spending & borrowing behaviour, many of these will now happily encourage you to link your accounts so they get itemised data from some people now too.
This could literally be happening today and they would just need to say “sorry your credit isn’t good enough”. Credit score factors into your ability to rent & buy accommodation in the UK already.
There’s no reason for these companies to switch to using a government ID for these kinds of decisions because that would have to be a more transparent process and less easily used to their benefit.
FWIW, I’m against mandatory ID even though we effectively already have it in the form of national insurance. IMO the ID being digital should be a non issue as long as it’s optional (there also needs to be a free physical version of any national identity for those without phones).
Credit scores are opaque ratings of people kept by private organisations
They are only opaque to the extent that reduces the ability to game them. It’s very common knowledge what the primary factors are that determine your credit score:
- payment history (it makes perfect sense that seen as more risky to lend to, if you don’t make your loan/credit card payments on time). Also, the more consistently you make your payments on time, the more credit limit increases you get, which helps with—
- utilization (it makes perfect sense that you’re seen as more risky to lend to, the closer to ‘maxed out’ you commonly are)
- derogatory marks (e.g. being sent to collections, having your house foreclosed on, etc.; makes perfect sense for things like these to be considered evidence of you being risky to lend to)
Without paying a cent of interest, my credit score is in the 800s, simply because I use my credit card for everyday purchases, then pay off the statement balance each month, and have done this consistently.
used to refuse business to people effectively based on their spending & borrowing behaviour
“Refuse business” is deceptively overbroad—no entity will prevent you from fully paying for something in cash based on your credit score, for example. But they may refuse to lend to you, if you have a history of failing to repay money that was lent to you in the past.
There’s nothing shady about that, it makes perfect sense for one to be less willing to lend money to someone who has a reputation of not repaying their debts.
Without a credit score or similar system, lenders either will:
- treat everyone with the same caution as they would someone who’s never borrowed anything before (which is detrimental to people who reliably repay their debts), if they’re ethical
- guess at creditworthiness based on prejudices/biases/stereotypes of the immutable characteristics of the individual looking to borrow, inviting bigotry to play a major role in who gets loans, etc.
Credit scores are purely beneficial to good/reliable borrowers—it seems that invariably, those who have the biggest problem with them are unreliable borrowers who really wish they could hide the fact that they don’t repay their debts from the next entity they intend to get more ‘free money’ from.
One caveat. You do get dinged on your credit score if you are too responsible with your credit. You get dinged if you don’t carry a balance on your credit card. Credit reports ultimately rate how profitable you are to lenders, not how responsible you are with credit.
A bad credit score won’t prevent me from buying groceries.
Yes credit scores are bullshit and the capitalist drive to maximize profit returns that leads to the application of credit scores to all sorts of things is a problem, but you’re delusional if you think credit scores are WORSE than the potential to entirely freeze bank accounts due to political opinions.
I’m curious about this point because, and correct me if I’m wrong, the UK government can already freeze people’s assets via the police today, it doesn’t need a national ID scheme to do this.
Credit scores are used today to deny people access to housing and finance services predominantly, but can also block people from having mobile phones and even jobs.
And they’re opaque we have no real way of knowing what data is used to determine them and in what way. That might include what you tweet about for all we know
Given a lot of people out there need to be able to access finance in order to be able to handle unexpected emergency costs, a bad credit score very literally could cause someone to not be able to afford groceries. Average personal debt is rising faster than inflation across the western world, so this is an increasingly big problem.
It’s worse because it’s a real problem today, not a hypothetical future one.
Yes a bad credit score could stop you from having access to things in emergencies, yes it could stop you from having access to things that are important in life, but there are a lot of extra steps and special circumstances that have to occur before a bad credit score is directly responsible for your fridge being empty. Most of those conditions involve simply not having money to access in the first place, and very few of them are going to be as sudden and immediately effective as a freeze on your bank account.
Needing access to financial services to handle a possible emergency is all well and good, but lacking that support structure absolutely pales in comparison to simply being forbidden from conducting commerce of any kind. No emergency needed, savings are irrelevant, the only preparation that could help you is a mattress full of cash and that’s definitely neither a good solution nor a long lasting one. People live their lives every day with bad credit scores, it sucks but it’s doable. Freezing what assets they have would make an immediate and decidedly negative impact well beyond the inability to get a loan. Thinking that credit scores are worse because they’re not a hypothetical future problem is like saying a stubbed toe is worse than getting shot, because you haven’t gotten shot yet.
Yes credit scores are bullshit
They’re not. They exist for a very good reason, and are purely beneficial to people who repay what they borrow. They only ‘hurt’ people who don’t repay their debts, but only insofar as it makes it more difficult for them to take more money from people that they then also won’t pay back.
That’s why my credit score went down when I paid off my student loans, right? Get the fuck outta here.
They also hurt people who are the most responsible with their credit. They ding you on your score if you don’t carry a balance on your card.
I support your opinion that something similar already exists, and I am also interested in why it is necessary to introduce a digital ID?
But you know, there was that old comedy where people handed over all their data and decision-making to an intelligent computer, and now we see AI, and eventually this nonsense is considered normal. See what I’m getting at?.. What seems crazy today may become normal after a while.
I don’t think it’s necessary, but I can see some of the reasons it might be introduced
Firstly digital IDs typically come with obvious convenience benefits for the user. E.g. apparently Gen Z doesn’t really carry wallets, so this means they have a way of getting ID that’s better for that way of doing things. They should also be harder to forge, so hopefully can help reduce fraud and identity theft.
I’d say from a government’s perspective, a digital ID program is cheaper to run and allows them to speed up access to some government services. I’d say most of the opportunities for abuse from the government come from when the ID becomes a mandatory thing, then you might get voter suppression and limitations of access to public services
Yeah like I don’t want a digital ID as in for the internet, but an RFID code i can keep on my phone or put on a dongle on my keys that serves as my driver’s license or passport would be nice.
It’s the idea that I have to tell the government that I’d like to attend this adult establishment that I’ve got a beef with. And I’m not as comfortable with ID checks at bars as most people are tbh
You’re gonna have to elaborate on that point. Do you think some products shouldn’t be age-restricted? Do you think it should just be honor-system? Are you simply a profoundly private person and resent that another human knows your name and age?
I’m not saying it should be done away with entirely, I’m saying I don’t quite like it.
It’s varying degrees of all of these things depending on the situation. Idgaf if 18 year olds want to drink and when I was in a country where I didn’t get carded buying beer it was kinda nice. Then there are environments like sex shops where I very much don’t want minors there, but at the same time anonymity or pseudonymity would be quite preferable to giving my government ID. And I’m seeing more and more places scan IDs rather than just look at them. And while today idgaf if the bartender or grocery clerk knows I drink, I’m not quite certain I’m comfortable with the government knowing it, and in some states I’d probably be uncomfortable with the government knowing such things about me.
The increases in age restrictions and need to present ID to do more and more is ceding the right to anonymity, pseudonymity, and to keep the government out of your affairs. It may or may not be worth it, but I keep seeing people acting like we aren’t giving these things up when we do this.
To some extent losing anonymity is the cost of living in a society. Owning property, the entire financial system, the entire legal system, huge portions of civizilation depend on reliable identification.
Scanning cards is fine with me as long as it’s just a validity check but I can’t say I trust Kroger to not build a database of spending habits, for example, so to some extent I share your discomfort. But I think it’s a small concern compared to the way we use cards to pay for everything now. Cash is the king of anonymous consumption.
You can have your assets frozen due to a bad credit score…?
Not in America and I highly doubt it for Britain. No idea what OP’s on about.
IMO, the meme works better without the bottom text.
Doesn’t this already happen in China?
“At least I’m not in China”, I mutter just as the force feeding tube is shoved down my throat and my wrist shackles are reattached to my ankle shackles.
Right now, both governments suck, but Americans are usually more rebellious than the average mainland Chinese, which has always been something I liked about the US. I mean you hear about all the protests in the US? Widespread protests like these NEVER happens in mainland China. My mother still tells me to shut to about my anti-PRC views even tho we’re not there anymore, and now have citizenship in another country, and I’m never going there again. Like the whole mindset of people are different. I have 50% hopes that Americans can turn this around, I have like zero hope about PRC, it’s doomed, and I’ve already mentally given up on it. My homehand is occupied by tyranny and a population that just absolutely apathetic about the situation and doesn’t give a shit.
But that sounds like China
Well it was a Guantanamo reference.
Turns out they hate each other because of how similar they are
No, they are paragons of truth and progress. -3 social credit score
The party is proud of you.
Same comrade, same.
Since this is already the norm in China and works well, why not spread it around the world where it is possible?
One more reason why privacy online is so important.
“Your credit score looks ok but your social score is lacking, sorry I can’t rent you this apartment”
Straight out of the Black Mirror episode.
Asset freezing happens without digital IDs. I’m not getting the connection.
This just makes it easier and essentially instantaneous
Those freezes occur today due to court rulings and proceedings
This is removing someone’s economic ability through “they’re being mean to me and my Nazi friends”
Obviously there’s a huge difference
You’ve just restated the concern without any explanation of how.
Fascists will twist systems to target their perceived enemies
No further explanation required
And why do you think they won’t twist the current asset freezing system?
Digital IDs change nothing
ChillPill answered your question meaningfully and you ignored them.
I dunno man - I don’t think I care if the government steals my money in 5 minutes or 5 months
I used to flirt with accelerationism and shades of nihilism, existentialism. Though these days I tend to feel like those 5 months can make a big difference.
In America Trump has produced an executive memo stating that anyone against him is a terrorist. The terrorism label carries a shitload of legal weight, asset freezing being one aspect.
If you’re online presence is tied to your real ID, you got problems. The government can easily hunt enemies for one. Imagine if Trump got hold of my lemmy posts. It’s no exaggeration to say federal agents would storm my home, freeze and seize my assets and throw me in a concrete and steel box for life.
Again, the government merely need point a finger and cry, “Terrorist!” and the target is fucked.
Fear mongering
Digital IDs will make the freeze faster and spread it wider
Many countries have digital IDs already and nothing like this is happening. Digital ID has nothing to do we censorship or freezing of bank accounts. Online Safety act was introduces without digital ID. I have a digital ID but I don’t have to show it anywhere.
Ok but imagine if you’re under a fascist government like in America rn or a genocidal goverment like Israel
You say anything bad about Israel’s actions? digital ID revoked at the literal click of a button, can’t do anything You say anything bad about ICE? digital ID revoked at the literal click of a button, can’t do anything
doesn’t help that fascism is growing in lots of countries
Maybe if the world wasn’t shifting to the fascism it would be a good thing. But in a fascist world, digital IDs will be used to persecute people.
Leas government surveillance is always a good thing in a fascist world.
Digital IDs are not used for surveillance. You can just as easily surveil people without them (check out Online Safety Act). Having them does not mean you have to use them all the time.
Online activity is already being tracked since the advent of Facebook and maybe earlier. Yeah, nothing new.
But most people are missing the point behind digital IDs and the pushback.
With digital IDs it will be possible to track people’s activity OFFLINE. Or are you so naive to believe that won’t happen?
Wanna buy alcohol? Let’s scan your ID, record all your personal information, record what you were buying, record the time and location! BAM! You’ve just been tracked offline.
Are you an antifascist terrorist? Wee woo wee woo! That’s the sound the fascist police will make when they come to arrest you for that antifa post you made, because they have been alerted of your location in real time when you were buying some beer.
Having them does not mean you have to use them all the time.
Says who? How long until that changes?
What people criticizing digital IDs are missing is that you can just as easily track normal ID cards.
You know why that lower half is formatted like that? That’s for computers to scan.
What’s that? That’s an ID scanner! Oh the horror! We’re all being tracked offline!!!1!
Basically, this is a beta version of what they are going to implement for us.
First of all, UK does not have personal IDs, just the good old passports.
Second of all, when you buy alcohol in a shop, do you actually need to scan your personal ID or just show your age on it?
Well, with digital IDs you WILL HAVE TO scan them whether you like it or not, when you need to prove you age or identity, that’s how they work, and that’s how they can track people vs. traditional IDs which are just looked at and sometimes they will scan a physical copy of the id on paper, that’s all.
I’ve only ever seen these scanners in airports. Do you really have them in shops where you’re from??
Good answer, I hope that guy understood.
I appreciate a lot will come down to the implementation, but I haven’t understood the proposal to at all guarantee that checking the ID will require some online check. This is meant to be a ubiquitous ID that we can use anywhere. Would businesses really accept having to use an ID that might not work if there’s a spotty data connection?
My read of it is that it’s intended, in most cases, to work like a railcard or digital bus pass does currently in the UK. Not unlike showing someone your driver’s licence, only the image of it on your phone is guaranteed to be valid rather than needing a specific physical card.
There are a lot of “ifs” and mostly potential downsides. So what are the benefits to this?
Would businesses really accept having to use an ID that might not work if there’s a spotty data connection
Have you ever had issues paying with your credit card due to a spotty data connection? Why would that be an issue with scanning your ID? Especially if the government forces businesses to do this.
My read of it is that it’s intended, in most cases, to work like a railcard or digital bus pass does currently in the UK.
Well yeah, that’s to begin with. But it also gives a lot of potential for further surveillance, and for what benefits? Do the benefits really outweigh the cons? Especially when the world is turning fascist? I don’t think so.
How many times have you gone “oh damn I wish it was easier proving my identity than showing my passport or driving licence”?
We don’t have the scanners in shops. That’s my point. Just because it’s possible to scan an ID doesn’t mean the government will scan them. Even in countries that have digital IDs you still have normal ID cards you can show to verify your age. “You will now have digital ID” and “You will now have to scan your ID at store” are two completely different things. People that claim that they are the same simply don’t understand either of them.
“You will now have digital ID” and “You will now have to scan your ID at store” are two completely different things.
Correct! Different things for now. But can you guess will come next?
This just makes it so much easier to take that next step.
You know governments don’t turn fascist in one move? But we are 100% getting closer and closer.
Or are you so naive to trust your government to never decide to take that next step and require you to scan your id everywhere?
I mean, it’s just your phone that you carry around all the time anyways, not like they’re asking you to bring your passport or national id card, right? They’ll just record that, but no worries mate, as long as you’re not anti-fascist, you’re safe!
I think you’re connecting digital IDs with people’s online activity for some reason. In most countries, authorities can already connect online activity with an individual, since you register and pay for internet. Doing things that the powers that be don’t like will get you in legal trouble. Remember the 2000s when the music industry sued individuals for millions? In China they take down your post if it challenges social cohesion, in the USA they take all of your money and assets for challenging corporate revenue.
Most digital IDs are options for people that already have their bank/credit card on their phone and don’t want to carry a wallet just for ID. Some places like Estonia go further with actual asymmetric keys that let you sign documents with your ID’s private key that proves you signed it.
I think you’re connecting digital IDs with people’s online activity.
Online activity is already being tracked since the advent of Facebook and maybe earlier. As you said ao yourself.
With digital IDs it will be possible to track people’s activity offline.
Wanna buy alcohol? Let’s scan your ID, record all your personal information, record what you were buying, record the time and location! BAM! You’ve just been tracked offline.
Are you an antifascist terrorist? Wee woo wee woo! That’s the sound the fascist police will make when they come to arrest you for that antifa post you made, because they have been alerted of your location in real time.
I don’t understand. Police can track you down via your credit card, your phone, your licence plate on your car, rando security cameras. All of these are hard to avoid. How often does your ID not just get checked, but recorded? It seems like not much of a game changer.
Yeah I don’t understand the big deal.
We’ve been using digital ID to identify ourselves to online government services in Australia since 2018.
Obviously I won’t be using it to log in to facebook or mucky-jpegs.com but I don’t really see it as a surveillance over-reach.
I’m assuming this meme is actually about requiring ID for social media, not digital ID.
I don’t really see it as a surveillance over-reach.
Just because you don’t see it happening now, it doesn’t mean it could not be used against people to persecute them, especially in fascist countries, where this would be a perfect tool for tracking people and mass surveillance.
This is a slippery slope logical fallacy.
Thing could be used with nefarious intent therefore thing should not exist.
I’ll admit I’m not really across the technical implementation details. The equivalent apps here in Australia don’t have the capability to track or surveil you.
There’s different variants but the ones here basically just show a photo of your ID with an animated background and generate a time based token that can be scanned and verified.
How will I benefit from having a digital ID? I won’t.
So why give away my privacy and gain nothing?
Sounds unnecessary and therefore stupid.
The equivalent apps here in Australia don’t have the capability to track or surveil you.
And then you say:
…generate a time based token that can be scanned and verified.
There’s your tracking, you’ve just been scanned and both your location and timestamp have now been recorded by the scanning app, and all the other data associated with whatever you were doing, like buying alcohol or entering a nightclub.
I don’t think this qualifies as a slippery slope fallacy. The outcomes they describe have backing in the form of places like China and the claims aren’t extremely divergent from what can be expected of corps and govs.
The way you are applying it would mean precluding all outlooks with any negative future to them. It’s not wrong to foresee a bad outcome. What would be a slippery slope is if there were no reasonable examples of abuse of this kind of tech or examples of approaching the explained outcome. Alternatively if they took it to an extreme that wasn’t realistic in amy scenario like determining how many kids you were allowed to have who you could date/marry and all determined by a corp or gov.
It’s just group think. People don’t like UK gov, UK gov proposed digital ID so digital ID is bad know. People keep posting this without giving it a second thought.
You think they can’t do that already? Naive…
Banks can and do jerk customers around for less than literal speech. The crypto community is full of stories from people who’ve had funds frozen or accounts closed for doing nothing worse than trying to legally ACH money into a vetted and regulated currency exchange. Banks think of your money as theirs, and tend to not like you moving it around too much.
I will not be participating when it does.
